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deFord, Miriam Allen (audio interview #3 of 3)
INTERVIEW DESCRIPTION - This is the third interview with Miriam Allen deFord, which took place five months after the first two. In the interim, she was hospitalized for a broken shoulder and pelvis. She looked more frail than earlier and her hearing had deteriorated further. As a result, there were several times in the interview when she did not hear the question being asked and provided an answer unrelated to the subject matter at hand. 8/23/1973
- Date
- 2020-01-30
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- Notes
- SUBJECT BIO - Miriam Allen deFord, a well-known writer in San Francisco, began her suffrage involvement at the age of 14 in Philadelphia, where she was raised. In 1912-1915, she soap-boxed for suffrage in Boston. Following this period of her life, she moved to California with her first husband. Her activities centered around radical politics and her writing, although it wasn't until many years later that she was able to earn a sufficient living from her writing. In addition to writing for the Haldeman-Julius Little Blue Books with her second husband, deFord covered the labor scene in San Francisco. Approximately 7 hours were recorded with Miriam Allen deFord in 1973, two years before she died at age 90. A slight woman with thick glasses, she apparently had a difficult time with cataracts and had a hearing problem. Despite these disabilities, she was a very vigorous, lively, and intellectually curious 84-year-old woman at the time of the first two interviews with her. deFord was always cooperative and interested in providing whatever information we would find helpful. She spoke very rapidly and often laughed nervously. All the interviews took place in her suite at the Ambassador Hotel in the Tenderloin district of San Francisco. The hotel, which she claimed was a good second class hotel at one time, was rather dilapidated. Despite the run down condition of the hotel, her own rooms, were in good condition; she apparently made all of the repairs to the suite and furniture at her own expense. Her suite included a small room that she used as her study; it was quite cluttered with books and photographs and was obviously a place where a woman is quite busy at work. Indeed, at the time of the interviews, deFord was still very busy at her writing career and at the end of first interview proudly displayed an honorable mention she had recently received for some of her poetry. TOPICS - Topics covered on this side of the tape include: the conservative politics of suffragism; early birth control practices and abortion; attitudes towards women's liberation movement;Topics covered on this side of the tape include: development of feminist consciousness; feminism among radicals; her later political involvement and the founding in 1924 of the Evolution League;Topics covered on this side of the tape include: association with radicals of various stripes; labor journalism career ; coverage of the 1934 general strike; and her literary career;
- *** File: sufmadeford6.mp3 Audio Segments and Topics: (0:00-2:11)... Tape introduction. (2:11-7:07)... Her activities with the labor movement started when she began working for the Federated Press in 1921 and reported on many of the trials and labor conventions that took place in the 1920s. At the time, most of the unions did not admit women. Those unions that did have a female membership were mainly left wing unions. A woman who did the same work as a man received less pay. In terms of the suffrage movement, a few unions passed resolutions in favor of votes for women, but for the most part unions did not coordinate their efforts with the suffrage movement. When she worked for the North American newspaper, there were no women who worked in other departments besides the woman's department. There was a woman photographer who worked for the paper, but she did not know if this woman received the same pay as the male photographers. Because she was starting out in the newspaper field, she did not know if women in her field received the same pay as men. (7:07-12:16)... While working for the Federated Press, she received only $20 a month for her work. The paper did not have a lot of money and most of the other reporters worked as volunteers. In 1936, she joined the Newspaper Guild, which did not distinguish between members based on sex; however, the Guild could not control who the newspapers hired. (12:16-15:11)... She was closely connected to the birth control movement because of her work with the Birth Control Review. As a young girl, she was in a position to learn about reproduction and birth control because her mother was a physician. Even though her mother did not speak about birth control, she was sympathetic to the movement. (15:11-22:10)... While living in Boston, she knew a Russian woman who was a doctor and instructed her on the use of a "Dutch pessary." Prior to inserting the pessary, she inserted a suppository that acted as a spermicide. In addition to using the pessary, she douched after sexual intercourse to further protect herself against pregnancy. A woman could also take three tablets mixed with water as an early method to inhibit pregnancy. She used this method once, but became very ill and required medical attention. She also took ergotrate on two occasions when she thought she may be pregnant. This was a commonly prescribed treatment to inhibit pregnancy; however, she never knew any women who used this because women did not talk about it at the time. All of the doctors she went to were active within radical circles. At the time, most of the gynecologists and obstetricians were women, but she also sought treatment from male physicians. (22:10-27:15)... At the time, the pessary was not fitted to each woman's individual size. The pessary was very difficult to obtain because it was imported from Europe and was very expensive. The birth control methods for most women was the douche, or men wore condoms. It was very difficult to find doctors who provided information and birth control devices. However, because of her radical associations, she was able to find doctors easily since most radicals advocated the use of birth control. While living in San Francisco in the 1920s, she provided approximately twenty women with the name of a reliable abortionist who charged women $50 to perform the operation. This doctor was ultimately arrested and sentenced to a prison term in San Quentin. (27:15-28:13)... The suffrage movement split into two factions: the conservatives and the liberals. The conservative suffragists were not interested in anything other than the vote, while the liberals were sympathetic to other women's issues. However, no one active in the suffrage movement openly endorsed birth control or abortion; that would have been fatal to the movement. (28:13-30:45)... She did not personally know many of the women she referred to the abortionist in San Francisco and was unaware if they suffered any adverse medical effects as a result of the abortion. The medical doctor she knew was very reliable and sanitary. In the late 1920s, she met a woman who had seven abortions and used this as her form of birth control. (30:45-33:00)... The liberals within the suffrage movement were not radicals, but were to the extreme right of the liberal spectrum. She cannot recall if any of these suffragists used the term "feminist." Many women believed in suffrage and were not interested in any other women's rights. Most of the women who believed in feminism were anarchists as well. In the late 1920s, she gave a lecture to a group of women who called themselves feminists. (33:00-38:47)... When suffragists were fighting for the vote, they anticipated that women would purify society once they got the vote. However, this was a naive ideology because women were humans and just as capable as men of corrupting society. As a result, once suffrage was won, many women were dismayed when they realized the vote was not changing politics or society. In addition, many liberal suffragists associated feminism with radicalism, which was too far to the left for them. She believes that when the women's liberation movement began, many older, liberal women feared that they would be considered lesbians if they associated with the movement. (38:47-42:51)... Many women were turned off by the women's liberation movement because of its anti-male element. This element was very rare in the earlier woman's movement, as many of the leading suffragists and feminists were married to very supportive husbands. The suffrage group she was involved with in Boston was headed by Maude Wood Park, a very conservative woman. Although it appears very radical to participate in soap box speeches, at the time, it was not an unusual occurrence. All of the street corners were filled with people speaking on their particular interests. She soap boxed two or three times a week for several years. end of tape *** File: sufmadeford7.mp3 (0:00-0:46)... The first time she registered to vote was when she came to California in 1915. The first time she voted was in Los Angeles in 1916. (0:46-2:39)... Although she cannot recall the approximate time she began using the word feminist, she recalls developing her feminist consciousness while reading the book, Woman, a treatise on the weaknesses of the female sex. This book was very patronizing towards women. (2:39-7:10)... Many of the stories she wrote did not distinguish between men and women; however, several of the articles she wrote for magazines dealt with feminist issues and she always wrote from a female point of view. A lot of her early poetry was feminist in nature, one of which was published in 1915. (7:10-9:06)... She believes her feminism developed at the age of six, at which time she found herself siding with women, rather than men. Although her sister was not an active feminist, she was active professionally and within the teacher's union. Her sister was too young to participate in the suffrage movement. (9:06-11:39)... Although she is supportive of the current woman's movement, she does not care for the anti-male element or some of the demonstrations, which seem a bit exaggerated. She is a member of the National Organization for Women (NOW). The women's liberation movement is better received than the suffrage movement because there is less male and female chauvinism that exists. The women's movement also provides much more opportunities for women to be politically active, whereas women's activities in the suffrage movement were limited. (11:39-16:44)... After woman's suffrage, there were periods when she was disappointed by the lack of women's political presence. She was surprised when the women's liberation movement erupted because there was no single event that triggered it. Within the radical circles she associated with, there was very little sexism. Feminism was a very small issue within the movement, but most radicals believed in women's rights. However, if there was domestic work to be done within the group, the women were the ones to do it. The generalization within these groups was that a man's work was more important than a woman's. Some women, such as Emma Goldman, refused to be relegated to the sidelines within radical groups. She describes Goldman as a very aggressive woman who surrounded herself with male figures that were weak and subservient to her. (16:44-19:33)... Women in the Industrial Workers of the World were underrepresented because many of the industries it covered were male dominated. There were several women in the organization who were equal with the male members, but very few of them were actually active with the group. Most of these women were the wives, sisters, daughters, or girlfriends of Wobblies. (19:33-22:43)... Although her husband never belonged to the IWW, he was active with the Socialist Party from 1916-22. After they both left the Socialist Party in 1922, they were not politically active until 1924-32 when they organized the Evolution League. Their membership consisted of scientists and biologists, as well as lay people interested in the movement. At this time, she was still working for the Federated Press and writing for various magazines. She also worked in several clerical capacities until after World War II when her freelance writing career became her sole source of income. (22:43-28:56)... Many of the initial members of the Evolution League were witnesses at the Scopes trial. The group was basically a lobbying group with branches in Los Angeles, San Diego, and Sacramento. The board of directors was comprised of scientists and biologists. In total, the organization had approximately 1000 members. The League disbanded in 1932. The group had a monthly newsletter and she also wrote about its activities in both the Nation and the Republic (sic). (28:56-32:55)... She reported on the founding meeting of the CIO, which accepted women on the same level as men. The AFL, on the other hand, did not accept women as members and many of the industries the union covered were male dominated professions. She also covered the labor convention when the two organizations merged. (32:55-34:42)... Her activities with the labor movement were peripheral. She became associated with a lot of people through her reporting activities for the Federated Press, which is how she became familiar with Thomas Mooney and his family. (34:42-36:08)... As a writer, she used her family name, except in instances when she did not want people to recognize her as the author. In her clerical and office work, she always used her married names. (36:08-40:25)... In 1907, she went to the national suffrage parade in New York by herself. At the time, her mother was deaf and unable to travel. Although her father was a feminist, he never marched in a parade because he was embarrassed that he would be one of very few men marching. Although the year is not clear, she recalls the suffrage parade in New York when Inez Mulholland led the parade on a white horse. [Note: this is the 1912 parade].During the parades, each city had a banner demarcating its contingent. There was never any violence at the parades, but the women were often jeered from the sidelines. People often made fun of suffragists when they soap boxed and signed phony names to the petitions they circulated. (40:25-43:12)... While living in Philadelphia, she did not write any material for the suffrage organization, but helped out with miscellaneous duties. After her soap boxing experiences in Boston, she did not participate in any other suffrage activities. end of tape *** File: sufmadeford8.mp3 (0:00-0:43)... The tape begins abruptly with a discussion of visiting people in county jail while she was working as an insurance adjuster. As an insurance claims adjuster for the Maryland Casualty Company, she often visited the county jail and interviewed burglars in an attempt to determine where they hid their stolen merchandise. (0:43-4:32)... She was in Chicago during the IWW trials and was shocked by the 20-year sentences each Wobbly received. Although she did not know it, she was under investigation at the time for her association with radical groups. When she met her first husband, she was introduced to several people in radical and anarchist circles. These associations increased and made her name very popular with authorities. (4:32-8:42)... While living in Boston, she met several radicals and anarchists, many of whom were sympathetic to feminism and birth control issues. In 1921, she joined the Federated Press and was paid $20 a month to be their labor correspondent in the Bay area. She also worked for the writer's project for the Works Progress Administration. (8:42-11:18)... When she was covering the 1934 general strike in San Francisco, her husband suffered a stroke. However, she continued her reporting activities and recalls the long line of strikers on the streets. At the time, everything was closed in the city for three days. When "Bloody Thursday" occurred, she was standing on a bridge overlooking the events, and although she did not observe the shooting of the two strikers, she was affected by the tear gas released by the police. (11:18-14:15)... She became interested in criminology because her husband had done a great deal of work on the history of the death penalty. Following an article she wrote for Halderman-Julius on detectives, she received a response from a prisoner in San Quentin. As a result, she became acquainted with quite a few prisoners and began writings articles on crime and punishment for pulp magazines. (14:15-19:23)... Her interest in science fiction was also influenced by her husband's work in this field. She began writing science fiction books in 1938. Her other writing interests are mysteries and true crime. (19:23-23:58)... Many of the ideas for her stories come from actual events. For example, she often uses specific components of a crime to build a story line. She discusses the literary changes that have occurred within science fiction and mysteries. (23:58-28:59)... Early science fiction portrayed women as the damsel in distress or as a passive observer of the male hero. Women are now portrayed as protagonists in science fiction stories. In addition, there are now more women who write science fiction because the field has moved away from an emphasis on science and technology into more sociological and biological issues that interest women. end of tape
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