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deFord, Miriam Allen (audio interview #2 of 3)
INTERVIEW DESCRIPTION - This second interview with deFord took place only two days after the first, initial interview. 3/8/1973
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- 2020-01-29
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- SUBJECT BIO - Miriam Allen deFord, a well-known writer in San Francisco, began her suffrage involvement at the age of 14 in Philadelphia, where she was raised. In 1912-1915, she soap-boxed for suffrage in Boston. Following this period of her life, she moved to California with her first husband. Her activities centered around radical politics and her writing, although it wasn't until many years later that she was able to earn a sufficient living from her writing. In addition to writing for the Haldeman-Julius Little Blue Books with her second husband, deFord covered the labor scene in San Francisco. Approximately 7 hours were recorded with Miriam Allen deFord in 1973, two years before she died at age 90. A slight woman with thick glasses, she apparently had a difficult time with cataracts and had a hearing problem. Despite these disabilities, she was a very vigorous, lively, and intellectually curious 84-year-old woman at the time of the first two interviews with her. deFord was always cooperative and interested in providing whatever information we would find helpful. She spoke very rapidly and often laughed nervously. All the interviews took place in her suite at the Ambassador Hotel in the Tenderloin district of San Francisco. The hotel, which she claimed was a good second class hotel at one time, was rather dilapidated. Despite the run down condition of the hotel, her own rooms, were in good condition; she apparently made all of the repairs to the suite and furniture at her own expense. Her suite included a small room that she used as her study; it was quite cluttered with books and photographs and was obviously a place where a woman is quite busy at work. Indeed, at the time of the interviews, deFord was still very busy at her writing career and at the end of first interview proudly displayed an honorable mention she had recently received for some of her poetry. TOPICS - Topics covered on this side of the tape include: contacts with anarchists in San Diego; move to Los Angeles; temporary move to Spokane; Mooney-Billings; separation from Armistead Collier; Federated Press; launching her literary career; and marriage to Maynard Shipley;Topics covered on this side of the tape include: relationship to the Mooney-Billings case; work in labor journalism; the San Francisco general strike of 1934; Haldeman-Julius "Little Blue Books;" and her termination from WPA as a result of her political associations;Topics covered on this side of the tape include: feminist beliefs; attitudes towards men and marriage; and involvement in the birth control movement, mainly through writings;
- *** File: sufmadeford3.mp3 Audio Segments and Topics: (0:00-2:15)... Tape introduction (2:15-5:31)... Her interest with left wing politics and the labor movement began during her involvement with Ford Hall. By the time she moved to San Diego in 1915, these issues were integrated into her political philosophy. She worked as a stenographer while living in San Diego and recalls Anton Johanson coming into her office and dictating a letter to Emma Goldman. She invited him to her home for dinner, but he did not make a good impression on her husband. In 1916, she moved to Los Angeles and visited Matthew Schmidt and David Caplan (who were arrested many years after the fact and accused of participating in the dynamiting of the Los Angeles Times, building in 1910) In 1917, she went to Spokane, Washington and did some soap boxing in support of Mooney and Billings. (5:31-7:37)... She continued to work after she married her husband because she did not want him to financially support her. In fact, she does not believe they could have lived comfortably if she did not have an income. At the time, she was working as a public stenographer and writing in her spare time. It never occurred to her or her husband that she would stop working once they married. (7:37-10:14)... Her political activity in San Diego was very limited. However, she recalls volunteering to hold a hall at which Emma Goldman was to speak because the police threatened to break up the meeting. She recalls meeting Goldman and purchasing a copy of her magazine, Mother Earth. (10:14-12:00)... Her activism with the radical movement is characterized by her work with the Federated Press. Beginning in 1921, she worked as a columnist and correspondent for the paper until it expired in 1956. She was the paper's only correspondent in the Bay area and was very well known. (12:00-15:49)... In 1916, she and her husband left San Diego and moved to Los Angeles. In addition to working various clerical and secretarial jobs while living in Los Angeles, she worked as an extra on Hollywood films. Her husband played bit parts in films as well. When she interviewed for an office position at an oil company in Los Angeles, she was told that all of the women who worked at the company wore black satin. The company was operated by both British and Scottish men, who were very arrogant and chauvinistic towards the women, which is why she decided to leave this company. (15:49-17:47)... She opposed World War I, and it was suggested by her husband that she express this opposition by joining the Industrial Workers of the World (IWW). Her political activity with the IWW was almost nonexistent. She did interview Bill Haywood in 1918, after she left the IWWs in 1917. When she joined the IWWs, she worked in the oil section of the organization. The only women besides herself were factory workers and all of the office employees were males. (17:47-20:38)... After traveling to Spokane, Washington to visit friends, she decided to stay for several months. At this time, she was experiencing problems in her marriage and this trip was a welcomed break from her life in Los Angeles. She found work at an egg packing facility and met a woman whose husband was a Wobbly. She uses the word "scissorbill," which was used by the Wobblies as a derogatory reference to an AFL member, or more generally, to someone who was conventionally conservative. (20:38-24:26)... As a member of the IWW, she was not active in any of the group's meetings or activities, which was typical of her relationship with most of the organizations to which she belonged. When she moved to Los Angeles with her husband, her activities within the radical movement did not go beyond personal relationships and friendships with people associated with the movement. At the time, she began writing poems and short stories for magazines, such as A. Philip Randolph's Messenger. (24:26-28:15)... At her father's behest, she left Spokane, Washington and accepted a job in Baltimore, Maryland. She did not know anyone in Baltimore and was very lonely. Although she was technically still a member of the IWW, she eventually made a few acquaintances with people active in the Socialist Party. In general, her political ideology did not coincide with socialist politics; however, all radicals at the time were opposed to World War I, which gave them a common bond. (28:15-34:19)... While in Baltimore, she went to the Socialist Party headquarters, where she met and began a romantic relationship with Maynard Shipley, the editor of the party's newspaper. At this time, the Palmer Raids were in full swing and all of the radical parties bonded together in opposition to World War I and the raids. At the time she met Shipley, she was still married, but her relationship with her husband was breaking up. She did not want to discuss the reasons for the dissolution of her marriage on tape. (34:19-36:56)... While in Baltimore, she worked for an olive oil company that imported oil from Spain. The company went out of business when the United States stopped importing products from foreign countries during World War I. She applied for a claims adjuster position with the Maryland Casualty Company, which was interested in hiring women to take the place of men fighting in the War. After receiving training in Baltimore and Chicago, she moved to San Francisco and worked as an adjuster there. Her relationship with Maynard Shipley had progressed and they agreed to live together in San Francisco. At the time, he was engaged in a lecturing and organizing tour within the United States in opposition to the War, which was a very risky endeavor. The two eventually married in Santa Rosa after both of their divorces were final. (36:56-39:41)... She worked for the Maryland Casualty Company from 1918 until 1923, and was the only woman claims adjuster in the company. She had difficulty with her supervisor, who was very conservative and disappointed to be working with a woman. As a result, he attempted to discourage her by assigning her workers compensation cases related to injury and dismemberment, or cases that would put her in a compromising position as a woman. However, she was unaffected by these tactics because her writing commitments began to increase. (39:41-43:07)... Her writing assignments included several different genres, with the exception of westerns and love poems. In 1921, she began writing for the Federated Press, while continuing her work as a claims adjuster. Her schedule with the Maryland Casualty Company was very flexible and she often visited the IWW headquarters during the day. She describes an incident in which she walked into a raid. Her presence at the headquarters was reported to her supervisor and she was fired from her claims adjuster position. Interestingly, her boss told her that when she began working for the company, the authorities informed him of her radical activities and suggested that he keep an eye her. (43:07-44:43)... Her work with the Federated Press included reporting on all of the the labor conventions and meetings, and the hearings and trials taking place within the labor movement in the Bay area. The paper did not have a large income and her salary was only $20 per month. end of tape *** File: sufmadeford4.mp3 (0:00-1:38)... She became associated with the Mooney-Billings case in Spokane, Washington and soap boxed on their behalf there. When she began working for the Federated Press in 1921, she covered all of the hearings in relation to this case. (1:38-3:39)... Although the Federated Press was accused of being a communist organization, the paper's political affiliation was simply pro-labor. There were approximately 300 newspapers within the Federated Press, including the New York Herald. She also wrote articles for the The Nation and The Republic. (3:39-5:13)... Prior to moving to Sausalito, she and her husband lived in Mill Valley for two years and then in San Francisco until they were burglarized. They then moved to a suburban section of Sausalito, where they lived for thirteen years. She describes Sausalito as a fishing village that catered to a mixed crowd of artists, writers, and criminals. (5:13-7:27)... After leaving her job with Maryland Casualty Company in 1923, she worked various office jobs. She also continued to work as a freelance writer, selling several articles and stories to magazines. However, she was not able to support herself on her writing alone until the 1940s. (7:27-11:14)... In addition to her freelance work with magazines, she continued to write for the Federated Press. She and her husband also began writing short books for Emanuel Haldeman-Julius, the publisher of the Little Blue Books. She was paid $50 for 15,000 words. Her husband mainly wrote science books and she wrote several biographies and translated books from Latin. These freelance writing assignments became their main source of income. With the exception of reporting on the various activities occurring with the labor movement, she was not politically involved in any other facet. In 1919, she joined the Socialist Party and went to one of the meetings, but left the party in 1922 because of political differences. (11:14-15:41)... Initially, she did not agree with socialist politics, but her husband succeeded in converting her. However, after she joined the party in 1919, it became very dangerous to attend meetings and participate in any socialist activities because of the Palmer Raids. She recalls the day when Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebnecht were murdered because of their political beliefs. (15:41-20:52)... The relationship between the socialists and communists was precarious during the 1920s. She recalls that the communists stole the subscription list for the Socialist Party paper. Although the communists opposed the socialists prior to the Russian Revolution, they aligned with them after the revolution. In 1922, she and her husband decided to leave the Socialist Party because it had aligned itself with right wing politics and the Democratic Party. Prior to leaving the party, her husband was very active and was the personal friend and campaign manager for Eugene Debs when he ran for office in 1913. (Later, in 1935, she switched her political affiliation to the Democratic party so that she could vote for Helen Gahagan Douglas.) She reported the events surrounding the 1934 general strike to the Federated Press. She recalls the events of "Bloody Thursday" when two strikers were shot and killed by the authorities. She was very close to the action and was affected by the tear gas used by the police. (20:52-22:08)... During World War II, she worked in public relations for two years. Around the same time, she started writing short books for Haldeman-Julius, which kept her busy because she was writing and typing her stories and typing her husband's stories. In 1934, when he was 61 years old, her husband had a stroke and he was completely paralyzed and unable to speak. (22:08-24:12)... When the Federated Press expired, she worked for the Labor Daily for two years until it also expired. She joined the Newspaper Guild in 1926 and during the 1959 strike in San Jose, she worked for the union's independent paper. She was interested in working for these papers because she was supportive of the labor movement, not because she wanted to become a reporter. (24:12-29:33)... The Thomas Mooney case sparked her interest because it was one of the biggest cases in California. After her husband died in 1935, she was summoned by Mooney to write a book on his activities. She was granted permission to visit him every week at the San Quentin prison, where she compiled notes and wrote his biography. This book was never formally published, but Mooney's support organization was able to print 100 copies of the book, which they distributed throughout the country. While reporting for the Federated Press, she became acquainted with numerous people involved in the labor movement. She covered all of the labor conventions held in the Bay area and recalls being present at the convention when the CIO was born. (29:33-34:04)... The 1934 general strike in San Francisco was triggered by the labor abuses occurring within the longshore industry. The strike only lasted a few days, but involved intense violence on behalf of the strikers and the police. Harry Bridges was a key player in the strike. She covered the events surrounding the strike and recalls that the "old boys" in the unions were reluctant to provide any material for her reports, while the new, aggressive industrial unions cooperated with her because they needed the publicity. (34:04-38:02)... While working for the Maryland Casualty Company, her activities with the IWW were scrutinized because of her friendship with Ed Archibald, who was a Wobbly involved in a serious accident while working. She worked as his claims adjuster on the insurance case. While in the hospital, he became delirious and blurted out that he was going to go to Washington, DC with deFord and convert Samuel Gompers. (38:02-42:44)... After her husband died, she spent a short time in Hawaii with a friend and then went back to Philadelphia for her mother's eightieth birthday. When she returned to San Francisco, she worked as a non-relief worker for the Works Progress Administration (WPA), 1936-39. She also worked on the editorial board for the California Guide, for which she wrote articles on California cities. In 1939, she reported on the deportation trials of Harry Bridges taking place on Angel Island. At this time, the WPA was weeding out the communists from the organization, and when they learned of her activities with Bridges, she was terminated. (42:44-45:52)... Her writing commitments expanded and she wrote various articles and stories for different magazines and newspapers. She became interested in criminology and the history of labor prisoners. Several of her stories were published by Halderman- Julius. end of tape *** File: sufmadeford5.mp3 (0:00-4:38)... She did not know any radicals who were not also sympathetic to women's issues. Women in the Socialist Party were very prominent, but she could not recall specific conversations about feminism. In the 1920s, she wrote articles for Margaret Sanger's Birth Control Review . She was connected with the early birth control league and became a member of the Planned Parenthood Federation. She wrote publicity articles for Patricia McGinnis and Rhoda Gurney when they began their work with free abortion. Her other birth control memberships include Zero Population Growth and the Non Parent Organization. (4:38-7:59)... In addition to soap-boxing, she worked as a public lecturer for a short period of time. However, she stopped speaking in public when she began experiencing health problems. Most of the speeches she gave were to women's clubs. The title of one of her speeches was "Tomorrow's Morality." After her suffrage activities in Boston, with the exception of Planned Parenthood, she did not join any women's organizations until the women's liberation movement. She expressed her feminism in many of the articles and stories she wrote. (7:59-11:18)... After suffrage was won, there was no organized movement for feminists. The League of Women Voters was created, but it was a very mild women's group. For the most part, feminists spoke out individually and other than the birth control movement, there was no organized movement. Women like Anna Howard Shaw, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, and Susan B. Anthony were still alive after suffrage and they pronounced themselves as feminists. (11:18-13:48)... After suffrage, there were many women recognized as feminists, but there was really no organization for them to speak through. Most of these women were known because they were writers. Her knowledge of Charlotte Perkins Gilman was as a writer. She read the Yellow Wallpaper and other works. The bohemian movement in Greenwich Village was a home for militant feminists. In contrast, the women who worked in the more conservative suffrage organizations formed the League of Women Voters and believed that once women got the vote, they would purify politics. However, a lot of these women were disappointed when they discovered that women in politics were just as corrupt as men. (13:48-15:46)... As a young girl, she was conscious that men abused women because they were stronger. However, she was hesitant to discuss whether her earlier attitudes towards men continued throughout her life. (15:46-19:31)... In terms of her career, being a woman did not inhibit her progress as a writer. She believes that writing is one of the few professions that does not discriminate based on gender. She had other artistic talents, but writing was her main interest. The negative perception of men that she developed as a young woman, did not prevail throughout her life because she has enjoyed good relationships with men. However, she knows that there are women who resent both successful men and women when they are unable to succeed in the professional realm. (19:31-23:57)... Like herself, many feminists have had supportive husbands. Feminism envelopes all types of women, most of whom hold a humanistic view of society where people are not distinguished by sex, color, or race. Other women have more of a bitter view of life because of personal rejection and blame men for their problems, while other feminists are lesbians. In general, there are women in every field who are capable of physical work, while some men are not. She defines feminism as a movement that proves there are no mental or psychological differences between men and women., and that opportunities should be available to people irrespective of gender. (23:57-26:01)... Many of the earlier feminists were not interested in any other issues besides women's rights, mainly because advocating women's rights was a very time consuming effort. Other women, held more radical views. For example, Margaret Sanger was initially an anarchist and then became the leader of the birth control movement. Most of her feminist readings occurred after she graduated from college. Until then, her feminist ideals developed without any explicit outside influences. (26:01-30:49)... As a young woman, her attitudes towards marriage and sex were still developing. At this time, Victorian ideals were prominent and she was easily shocked by even subtle sexual references. For a period of time after college, she was convinced that no men were attracted to her. This attitude changed when she became involved activities at Ford Hall in Boston and several men showed an interest in her. However, when she met her first husband she was still very prudish and inexperienced. (30:49-36:38)... Her belief in legal marriage was influenced to a large extent by her parent's belief in it. She did not want to compromise her relationship with her family by not getting legally married. She recalls the first time she married in La Jolla, California and her mother's disappointment about learning of the marriage from the newspaper. She lived with her second husband, Maynard Shipley, for three and a half years before they married, only because they were both going through divorces at the time, not because they were opposed to legal marriage. Although she is somewhat shocked when she finds out that people are living together, she does believe in trial marriages. Marriage is an easy solution to solving a lot of the financial difficulties people face in today's society. (36:38-38:13)... Socially and legally, she used her husband's names in both of her marriages. Professionally, however, she always used her family name. She was named after her grandmother, who was one of fifteen children. (38:13-43:36)... There is a discussion of various photographs of her as a young child with her family and of photographs taken of her in the 1920s and 1930s. end of tape
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