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Downer, Carol (audio interview #2 of 3)
INTERVIEW DESCRIPTION - This second of three interviews with Carol Downer, conducted four years after the Women Rising interview, was part of a Senior Honors project at UCLA. The interview was conducted at Downer's office at the Feminist Women's Health Centers business office. This was the very first oral history interview conducted by Moravec and her own presence is notable.
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- 2020-03-06
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- SUBJECT BIO - Carol Downer, one of the founders of the Feminist Women's Health Center in Los Angeles, has been a leading force in the feminist health movement and its most visible advocate of self-examination. She was also on the Board of Directors of the National Abortion Federation. The oldest of four children, Downer was born in Shawnee, Oklahoma, but came to Los Angeles with her family when she was two. She attended Glendale High School, where she actively participated in student activities, and then went on to UCLA, dropping out when she became pregnant. She moved with her husband to northern California, where he was stationed in the Navy and where her daughter was born. After she moved back to Los Angeles, when she was pregnant with her third child, she reentered Los Angeles City College. By the time she was divorced from her first husband, Downer had four children, and after marrying her present husband, Frank Downer, in 1964, she had two more children. During this period, she attended CSU Los Angeles, where she studied sociology. Downer's feminist consciousness was awakened when she worked on the recall campaign of Councilman Art Snyder and saw how liberal men discriminated against women in leadership positions. Later, in 1969, she joined Los Angeles NOW, although she was acutely aware of her class difference from the other women in NOW. She worked in the Abortion Task Force of NOW with Lana Phelan, author of The Abortion Handbook, who became her mentor, and became a speaker on abortion rights for the LA NOW chapter. With an eye to learning how to perform abortions in order to challenge the restrictive laws, Downer and other women observed abortion procedures at an illegal abortion clinic. They then called a meeting on April 7, 1971 to educate women about abortion and their bodies. This was the first Self-Help Clinic. Committed to spreading the idea of self-help to women across the country, the women demonstrated a gynecological self-examination at a national NOW conference. Over the years, they traveled throughout the US and to Europe, Mexico, Central American and Iran. The outgrowth of the initial meeting of the Self-Help Clinic was the development of the concept of menstrual extraction and the invention of the Del-Em kit by Lorraine Rothman. Subsequently, in 1972, they formed the Feminist Women's Health Center (FWHC), which initially functioned in the back room of the Crenshaw Women's Center. Later that year, Downer and Colleen Willson were arrested and charged with "practicing medicine without a license" - Downer for inserting yogurt to treat a woman's vaginal yeast infection. She was acquitted after a trial that was dubbed "The Great Yogurt Conspiracy Trial" by anarcha-feminists at the Westside Women's Center. In 1973, eight of the women in the FWHC group started the first women-controlled clinic, which continued to operate successfully until 1984, when it experienced financial problems and was taken over by the Oakland FWHC.* After the Oakland clinic was burned down, the operation was resumed in Los Angeles. Downer ran the Federation of Women's Health Centers (originally founded in 1975 at a Mexico City conference on Women and Health) out of the clinic location on Wilshire Boulevard for the next two years, until 1986 when the clinic was forced to close completely. From 1987 to 1991, while she attended law school, Downer continued to work for the Federation of FWHCs. Since then, she has practiced law, mostly in the area of disabilities rights. Although a case of severe shingles (Herpes Zoster) required her to stop working in 2003 for a year, she has returned to law and continues to make appearances on immigration matters. She is currently working on a memoir of her early experiences in the women's movement. * Margo Miller, Francie Hornstein, Jennifer Burgess, Shelly Farber, and Debi Law were particularly instrumental in establishing the clinic. TOPICS - background; family relationships; role models; high school; goals and aspirations; college; pregnancy and marriage; divorce; community involvement; development of consciousness raising; involvement with NOW; daughters development and experiences with school; remarriage and return to college; growing political awareness; abortion task force of NOW; formation of group at Everywoman Bookstore; conducting self-help demos abortion experiences; conflicts in women's movement; Westside Clinic; FWHC structure, goals, politics, and ideology; Federation FWHC; attacks on FWHC; WATCH conference; Tallahassee direct action; impact of self-help movement; problems in LA women's movement; current challenge of feminism; NOW leaving the Crenshaw Center;
- *** File: fhcdowner3.mp3 Audio Segments and Topics: (0:00-4:38)... Downer was born in Oklahoma in 1933 and moved to California with her family when she was two years old. Her father was an accountant and small businessman; and her mother was a secretary and housewife. Politics in the household were brought up by her, discussed by the whole family. Her father was conservative, but her mother's family were Democrats. Her parents had a stormy relationship and were divorced for a short time while she was young. (4:38-7:31)... Downer's grandmothers were her role models. Her maternal grandmother, who was a postmistress of a small town post office, was well-respected and self-reliant. Her paternal grandmother ran a business college. She notes that the two sides of the family did not go to doctors except when they were sick, a practice that was common at the time. (7:31-12:48)... Downer attended Glendale High School, where she was very active. She was encouraged by her parents to do well in school, but notes that they sometimes had unrealistic expectations. Because her mother worked, Downer had a major responsibility for her three younger brothers when she was in high school. She took college prep classes but because the family was very poor she did not think about going to a non-state supported college. She really wanted to go to college and thought it would be a great adventure. She attended UCLA and started off in English but switched to Geology because of her professor. She was the only woman who was majoring in Geology and her professors were very encouraging. She planned to be a geologist. (12:48-17:24)... Downer became pregnant and had to drop out of school and get married. She did not know about abortions and she just told her family that she was getting married. Her first husband, Wally Brown, was in the Navy and she went to Oakland and lived on the base. Her pregnancy was hard, and she was sick most of the time. [Editor's note: in a private communication, Downer noted that she read about natural childbirth on her trips to her prenatal care appointments and delivered her daughter, Laura, without anesthesia.] When her husband got out of the Navy, they moved back to L.A. and had three more children - Vickie, Shelby and David. Her husband came down with tb and was in the hospital for a year, which was a great strain on the marriage. She had to go on welfare. They were divorced within a year or two. He became nervous and driven to make up for lost time and did not take care of his health. He died a few years later. [Editor's note: in a personal communication, Downer noted that she became pregnant shortly after she separated from her husband. After extensive counseling and soul-searching, she had a very paintul curettage abortion in a stark, make-shift office on Central Avenue.] (17:24-20:29)... Downer lived on child support and returned to night school. She also remarried. She majored in Sociology and comments that she would have gone into Political Science if she was more aware. She was hoping to get her degree and wanted to do social research. When she went to see a counselor, he pushed her to be a social workers and refused to counsel her because she would not consent to being a social worker. [Editor's note: she married Frank Downer in 1964 and had two more children, Angela in 1965 and Frankie in 1968.] (20:29-24:46)... When she returned to UCLA to finish her degree, she was much older and she was more involved with her community rather than with school activities. In 1960 she became involved in a movement to recall Councilman Art Snyder over the urban renewal issue. He eventually resigned. This was her first exposure to traditional politics on a grassroots level. She was elected chair of the recall committee, noting that the men kept suggesting men until some of the women in the group became upset and argued for her her. It was obvious that the men were unable to see a woman in that role. That is when she began to get the message; and she was reading Kate Millet's book at the time, which really raised her consciousness. (24:46-26:56)... Downer joined NOW about the same time as the recall campaign, around 1969. She had heard about Betty Friedan's action of chaining herself to the White House. She knew instantly she wanted to join. Also, we was working at a place where a more qualified woman was passed over for a position in favor of a man. She actually saw this happen and realized what was going on. (26:56-29:42)... Tony Carabillo led the first NOW meeting that Downer attended. [Note: see interview with Carabillo in LA Feminists series.] Downer was very impressed with all the women there. She was a little more politically radical than most of the women there who were largely middle class professionals. She had become angry knowing what was happening in the schools and to her own children. The schools were tracking kids, stomping out creativity, and enforcing dress codes. End of tape *** File: fhcdowner4.mp3 (0:00-6:14)... Downer has four daughters. They all took college prep courses like she did in high school and college was a part of life for the family. As Downer became more politically aware, her ideas of what a successful person was changed. Her daughters are a mixture of liberal and conservative; one was very politically aware and another was not active. Two dropped out of school and Downer had mixed feelings about this because the school system as very oppressive. She believes that she and her daughters mutually influenced each other. After Downer remarried, she had another daughter and one son. She notes that it was eye opening to see how boys were treated so differently than girls. (6:14-11:15)... At the time that her son was still in the crib, Downer was taking courses at CSULA . She was greatly affected by two classes: political sociology and demography. Both gave her nightmares. One predicted mass starvation and the other nuclear holocaust. It scared her to try to make a better world for her kids and her own mental health and progress as a woman. (11:15-12:56)... Recognizing that she had to do something other than volunteer in the girl scouts, Downer started going to NOW meetings and getting involved in the abortion movement. Abortion was legal in California in 1967 but not available; a woman had to prove she was mentally unstable or that her life was in danger. But it was available for wealthy women who could go to their private doctors. Downer had her second abortion at that time and it was legal, but her first one was illegal. She had to say that she was suicidal in order to get a legal abortion. [Editor's note: in a communication, Downer notes that her 1970 abortion was granted under the California Therapeutic Abortion Act, which required certification from a psychiatrist. She notes that the abortion, which was performed at a local hospital, was under general anesthesia and was as painful as the first because the doctor had used a weighted speculum that stretched the vaginal and clitoral walls.] (12:56-16:46)... When Downer went to her first NOW meeting she signed up for the abortion task force. At the time it was illegal to hand out information and/or advocate for abortions. Downer started doing research and became obsessed with abortion and the laws passed and why so many women died. At the time the (Crenshaw) Women's Center was referring women for illegal abortions to an office on Santa Monica Boulevard. Downer went with the women who were referred. She saw a woman's cervix before she actually saw an abortion. Downer realized then that it was essential for the male power structure to keep women ignorant of their own bodies. (16:46-20:33)... Downer became involved in the Everywoman Bookstore at the same time that she was involved with NOW and the Women's Center. She started her own group and there were stresses and strains between NOW and the group. Downer felt politically drawn to both NOW and her own group. What sparked a lot of growth for her group was the presentation that they made at the national conference at NOW. They were very well received and women were lined up in the halls. (20:33-22:22)... At the presentation made at the NOW conference, women did self-exams and Downer and her group gave the women speculums. The goal at the time was to get out the idea of self-help. Downer traveled all over the world, using the sale of speculums to finance her travels. (22:22-28:37)... Although Downer's husband was "blown away" by her traveling to promote self-help, he was used to her being involved. While she was on the road, he took care of the kids; and they were also cared for by a child care person down the street. Her husband is a supervisor of collecting MediCal. Downer notes that this time of her life it was quite a contrast to her earlier years; she had put so much energy into her older children's activities in contrast to her younger children. Her younger children are quite a bit different than her older children. They are not as politically active. This may have to do with the times and changes. End of tape. *** File: fhcdowner5.mp3 (0:00-7:12)... Downer had one illegal abortion on Central Avenue. Except for one chair, the office was bare. A Black doctor performed it with no anesthesia. It was extremely painful. She was packed with gauze and had to take it out herself the next day. Pulling out the gauze was an awful and painful experience because it had dried. She did not have any other complications. She paid $200 in 1963. Her legal abortion was in 1969 (sic) and she had to go to a psychiatrist and pretend that she was going to kill herself. He would not sign the paper of consent until she said she would commit suicide. She had an abortion in a hospital and was in horrible pain for about 24 hours. [Editor's note: in a communication, Downer notes that her 1970 abortion was granted under the California Therapeutic Abortion Act, which required certification from a psychiatrist. The abortion, which was performed at a local hospital, was under general anesthesia and was as painful as the first because the doctor had used a weighted speculum that stretched the vaginal and clitoral walls.] (7:12-15:30)... Downer claims that the women's movement was very fractionated and feels that it was its own worst enemy. There was a local battle as well as a national battle. Downer focuses on the local battle and talks about problems with Hope Blacker, who she describes as a brilliant but very erratic person. Blacker was a counselor at the FWHC and counseled pregnant women; the problem was that she was not hygienic and resented any correction. She eventually left the FWHC, but Downer does not recall whether of not she was asked her leave. Blacker later received funding from the L.A. Regional Family Planning Council. Downer claims that the FWHC could not get funding from them because the Council was trying to freeze it out and eliminate it. There was a genuine conflict between Blacker and the Women's Center. [Editor's note: Blacker was one of the founders of the Westside Women's Clinic, along with Miriama Carson. This clinic grew out of a self-help group at the Westside/Venice Women's Center. It is for this Center that Blacker obtained the funding from the Council.] (15:30-22:03)... The FWHC was structured in a somewhat hierarchical fashion and Downer and the other women who worked there were against volunteerism. They wanted to be paid for their work. They had regular staffers who worked eight hours a day and were paid a certain amount; other women promoted the idea of collectivism. The contract staff included a bookkeeper or the nurse who wanted to work in a women's center. The regular staff read the mail and attended the meetings and had all of the "say" of what went on at the center. This did not sit well with the contract staff. (22:03-25:00)... Another big problem with the women's movement in this period was that groups came and went. Women would come into the center everyday and wonder who was in charge and what was going on; frequently people would become very obnoxious. The center tried to raise their consciousness. (25:00-29:28)... When the FWHC started their own clinic and stopped referring women to the free clinic for abortions, more internal conflict surfaced. Some of the women had issues with turf protection and how to run the clinic. Downer and the other women who believed that they should charge money and who held more radical views won the battle internally at the clinic. The politics of the center is anti-imperialist; they are not just working to get women higher pay. They are pro-gay rights and women's sexuality. They are against mammograms in contrast to the mainstream women's health movement, although they do refer women, explaining to them their doubts. The center is against population control while the health movement (at the time of the interview, 1990) supports it. End of tape. *** File: fhcdowner6.mp3 (0:00-4:07)... Downer explains that first the women's clinic (FWHC) was formed and then later, in 1975 at a conference on women and health in Mexico City, the Federation of FWHC was established. The FWHCs organize themselves on a national level and are more tightly knit. They meet two or three times a year. She comments that is it great to be linked with women nationally. (4:07-6:00)... Downer talks about the concerted attack on the FWHC in Off Our Backs. It was more on a personal level directed against the women in the Orange County FWHC for paying themselves high salaries. (6:00-6:33)... The Orange County FWHC was started by women in Downer's group and women in Orange County. Lorraine Rothman, who was involved in Los Angeles, teamed up with Eleanor Snow and Ruth Wade, among others, to establish it. (6:33-13:40)... The WATCH (Women Acting Together to Combat Harassment) conference in Tallahassee, Florida was organized in order to fight off attacks that the women's centers (FWHCs) were experiencing. In this case, Downer and the women in WATCH were the attackers. One part of the program showed a film on a maternity hospital shut down by a greedy hospital. They also had a speaker on childbirth. The women were outraged and after the program, they decided to stage an inspection of the Tallahassee Memorial Hospital. They took a busload of about thirty people and a television crew. They had talked to an attorney who told them it was legal as long as they left when they were told. Half of the group went to the OB ward and the other half went to the maternity ward. The nurse asked them to leave the nursery and they did. Two days later Downer and the group that went into the nursery were arrested and put on trial. They lost their case. When Downer decided to go to Iran, the judge pulled her bond and she went to jail. The trial was a joke and it was obvious the judge was against them. They appealed and the decision was overturned. (13:40-15:28)... When Downer went to the Tallahassee Memorial Hospital to do an inspection she was hoping to draw attention to the high rate of caesarians performed. At the time it had skyrocketed to 15 percent. The town did not understand their point and thought that they were hurting the babies. (15:28-18:29)... Downer believes that the success of the feminist health work in which she was involved is the fact that self-help is international. It is very rewarding to her that women all over the world are doing self-help. She feels that she and the others had a large, lasting impact and made an important contribution. (She reads a letter from a woman in Milwaukee). (18:29-23:54)... Downer comments that the Los Angeles women's movement is very sad because they believe the fight is over. Downer believes that they think they have gained something. Yet, women who have babies now are worse off than before because it is not enough to just love them, they have to teach them to read by age three. She also believes that women are sexual slaves but more expertly now. She comments that men and women are very alienated and believe that the biggest challenge for the feminist movement is to integrate feminism with the world view. When Downer started calling herself a feminist it was very quaint. They picked it because it was more radical but now it seems to have changed meanings. Downer does not know what it even means today. (23:54-27:00)... When Downer traveled, she noticed that New York, the Bay Area, and Los Angeles had the most splits and fractures internally in the women's movement. She believes that it is hard to organize politically in L.A, commenting that you have to watch your back and that it is very cold. It continues to be hard and L.A. is so spread out that it is hard to organize. (27:00-29:02)... NOW left the Crenshaw Women's Center because of the gay/straight issue and the role of the Socialist Workers Party (SWP). The abortion issue was at its height and the SWP saw an opportunity to capitalize on it. End of tape
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