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Tillmon, Johnnie (audio interview #3 of 5)
INTERVIEW DESCRIPTION - This is the third of five interviews with Johnnie Tillmon, the second in the 1991 oral history recorded with her in the living room of her small, compact home of the Watts/Willowbrook neighborhood of south Los Angeles. The warm relationship established with the narrator was strengthened by the political discussions that we held both before and after the recording session. In contrast to the previous interview, the audio quality of this interview is good. n.d.
- Date
- 2022-10-03
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- Notes
- *** File: wmjtillmon9.mp3 Audio Segments and Topics: (0:00-9:19)... Brief introduction. Tillmon gave birth to two children during her first marriage to James Tillmon, the first of whom died when he was five months old. She gave birth to several other children, but did not marry again, until 1979 when she was living in Los Angeles. She does not believe single motherhood was difficult, and in assessing the two-parent families around her, she thought they were no better off than she was. She had no desire to remarry for economic reasons; she adequately fed and clothed her children. They all attended school and she left it up to them whether or not they wanted to graduate from high school. She talks about the lives and careers of her children, most of whom hold professional jobs. Tillmon never regretted leaving her first husband and notes that had she stayed with him she would still be living in Arkansas and not doing anything important. In fact, when she was young, she never envisioned herself getting married, keeping house, and raising a family. However, she eventually changed her mind. (9:19-16:54)... Tillmon explains Arkansas law pertaining to children's surnames that were not born to a married couple. All of her children used her married name, Tillmon. None of them had any interest in meeting their fathers and considered her both their mother and father. Blacks and Whites living in the South did not officially adopt children but simply raised children as their own. It was not until new laws were enacted that formal adoption procedures were instituted, but she believes that these legalities have caused more harm than good. There were no problems when her brother raised her daughter until he decided to go on disability because of a work-related injury. The state then denied aid to Tillmon's daughter because her brother did not legally adopt her. (16:54-20:36)... When she lived in Arkansas, Tillmon was active with the PTA and the Women's Auxiliary of the Methodist Church. Most activities took place in the evenings or on the weekends so that work schedules were not interrupted. Commenting on the assistance program in Arkansas, she notes that mothers who had never been married were denied state assistance. (20:36-25:23)... Tillmon does not recall ever experiencing any "problems." When she needed to talk to someone about things she usually spoke to her aunt. She did what was necessary to keep her family healthy but did not feel any strain or stress because of her busy schedule with work and family. When she had any spare time, she went dancing or rested. Although she did not attend church on Sundays, she sent her children to Sunday school and used that time to sleep. During holidays, she spent time with her extended family. Christmas was a particularly important holiday for her family. (25:23-26:08)... She describes the household chores that she assigned to her children, which were not necessarily gender specific. However, her daughters were much better housekeepers than her. (26:08-27:36)... Tillmon received one week of vacation time during the year, which she usually spent working around the house. It was not until recently that she began using her vacation time for traveling and doing other activities normally associated with a "real" vacation. The interview ends just as the subject changes to her work environment in the laundries where she worked. End of tape. *** File: wmjtillmon10.mp3 (0:00-7:51)... This segment begins with a continued discussion on the work environment in the laundries. Tillmon worked with both Blacks and Whites and does not recall any racial tensions between the workers. People were more concerned about earning money than their coworkers' skin color. The workers and the public facilities in the defense plant where she worked during WWII were not segregated. She socialized with White workers at both the defense plant and the laundries where she worked. Although the factory was not segregated, only Black men worked as dyers and mechanics. (7:51-10:01)... When Tillmon left Arkansas, she was earning $30/week doing piecework in the laundry, and was also receiving $16/month assistance (welfare). When Tillmon joined her brothers in Los Angeles after her father 's death, she was pregnant. She moved in with her brother until she could afford to live on her own. She went to work for a laundry facility with her sister-in-law. (10:01-11:59)... Tillmon's wages were higher in Los Angeles. She found a one-bedroom house with a kitchen and a toilet and her family lived there until they moved into Nickerson Gardens, a public housing project located in Compton, where they lived in this housing project until 1967. When Tillmon was at work, a neighbor cared for her children. (11:59-13:21)... Tillmon was required to join the union when she started working at a laundry facility in Los Angeles. She talks about her daily routine managing her household and work schedule. (13:21-19:12)... Tillmon moved into Nickerson Gardens in January 1962. She received a notice from the Housing Authority inviting residents to a meeting of the Nickerson Gardens Planning Organization, the purpose of which was to maintain a clean living environment in the housing project. During this period, she also worked as a volunteer in political campaigns for local candidates, including registering voters for which she earned .20 for each registrant. When she decided to apply for welfare, the president of the Nickerson Gardens Planning Organization handled the application process for her to expedite her claim. (19:12-21:12)... The laundry workers union (Laundry and Dry Cleaning Workers Union, Local 52) asked Tillmon to be a shop steward. The union provided her with training and she attended union meetings on a regular basis. Her responsibilities as a shop steward involved handling workers grievances. (21:12-25:10)... Tillmon discusses her work environment in Los Angeles compared to Arkansas. Although there were language barriers in Los Angeles because many of the laundry workers were Mexican, she does not recall experiencing any racial tensions on the job. End of tape. *** File: wmjtillmon11.mp3 (0:00-2:42)... During the Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s, Tillmon participated in a march on the City Hall in Los Angeles. In general, however, she preferred negotiating rather than demonstrating. In her work with ANC Mothers Anonymous and the Welfare Rights Organization, demonstrations were employed only after communication with the county failed. (2:42-11:12)... Tillmon discusses her bout with tonsillitis and the circumstances that led her to seek welfare assistance beginning in January 1963. The president of the Nickerson Gardens Planning Organization contacted Gilbert Lindsay who was a representative for Supervisor Kenneth Hahn at the time. He arranged for Tillmon's welfare paperwork to be expedited. Initially, she was hesitant to go on welfare, but ultimately was persuaded by her friends to stay home so that she could get well and take care of her children. When she went to the welfare office, Tillmon received $41 in cash and a $26 grocery order. After her children left for school in the mornings, Tillmon went out to register voters. (11:12-14:45)... Tillmon decided to organize welfare mothers because she wanted to change the negative attitudes towards women on welfare. Nonsensical comments that women got pregnant just to receive more welfare money incensed Tillmon. These attitudes, and particularly an incident in which a Black woman accused women living in the housing project of being lazy welfare recipients, catalyzed Tillmon to mobilize and form ANC Mother Anonymous. She notes that Black women who criticized welfare mothers often were one time welfare recipients themselves and residents of the housing project. Most people in the project viewed their stay in the housing project as temporary. In general, people moved out of the projects when their economic status improved. (14:45-17:02)... Tillmon brought home approximately $60/week in wages and paid $32.00 a month in rent. When she went on welfare, she received $237/month and her rent increased to $41/month. Even though her rent increased, she did not have to pay for water or gas. (17:02-21:41)... Tillmon objected to the practice of denying subsidies to families if a man was living in the home, particularly since society preaches that children be raised by two parents. Even when a man is living in the home, he cannot contribute to the economic stability of the family if he is unemployed. She was happy when California changed this practice and began providing aid to two-parent families. She does not think it is fair when personal freedom is limited. Men should also have the same choices as women, including the opportunity to be single fathers. Unfortunately, men in this situation are occasionally labeled as child molesters. (21:41-27:59)... One of the goals of ANC Mothers Anonymous was to "lift their standards," whether they are political, economic, or educational. When she started organizing women in 1963, building a child care center was one of her main goals. It took her seven years to convince the proper officials that a childcare center was necessary for welfare mothers who wanted to work or obtain an education so that they could improve their lives. In 1974, the head of the Pediatrics Department at Martin Luther King Hospital assisted ANC Mothers in opening a center [the Johnnie Tillmon Child Care Center]. [Editor's Note: at the time, it was the Charles Drew University of Medicine and Science. In order for mothers to qualify for childcare, ANC Mothers set up a screening process. The center provided childcare for children from infancy to kindergarten. End of tape. *** File: wmjtillmon12.mp3 (0:00-4:02)... Tillmon and five other women organized ANC Mothers Anonymous. Many women on welfare either lacked the necessary training required in the job market or had skills but could not work because they did not have access to childcare. Tillmon did not advocate the idea of paying women to stay home and care for their children. Her goals were twofold: to change the attitude towards welfare recipients and enable women to become independent by helping them find work and adequate childcare. (4:02-10:09)... Tillmon talks about the other women who helped her organize ANC Mothers Anonymous and repeats the story of how she obtained the names of the other residents and organized the first meeting. The other women involved in these early efforts were in the same position as Tillmon, i.e. single mothers, most of whom had been on welfare for several months. The early meetings of the group involved administrative and organizational tasks rather than cementing specific goals of the group. The women simply felt that the welfare system had to be changed. (10:09-10:52)... At the time that ANC Mothers Anonymous was being organized, Tillmon returned to work at a laundry facility in Huntington Park. She worked there fore three days and left because she could no longer do that sort of work. She continued to earn money by registering voters. (10:52-18:19)... Women involved in ANC Mothers Anonymous did not think of their efforts as being related to their status as women. They were concerned about supporting their families and surviving and wanted their children to have a better life. This meant improving the welfare system so that their children would not have to endure unfair treatment, such as midnight raids. Even though Tillmon heard women talk about their rights to stay home and raise their children while receiving state assistance, ANC Mothers Anonymous did not advocate these ideas. She discusses a senatorial hearing in Los Angeles that revolved around this issue. ANC Mothers Anonymous sought first to improve the treatment of and attitudes towards women on welfare and provide childcare so that women could go to work. (18:19-22:22)... ANC Mothers Anonymous did not cover issues regarding reproductive rights. The women in the group thought that the common notion that welfare recipients had more children just to increase their subsidy was ridiculous, particularly since the increase was only $6 per child. They did discuss contraception, however. Tillmon thought it was important to tell women about the improvements in contraceptives and she notes that if these types had been available during her childbearing years, she probably would not have had any children, noting that she had used a foam. (22:22-25:16)... ANC Mothers Anonymous expanded their activities into the community. Tillmon notes that during the early years of the group, she and the other women focused on the daily lives women. She did not get involved in women liberation groups until many years later. The interview ends just as Tillmon is being questioned regarding her publications in the 1970s. End of tape. *** File: wmjtillmon13.mp3 (0:00-7:51)... ANC Mothers Anonymous was active in local politics and community events in the period 1963-66. Although the group did not focus initially on feminist issues and women's rights, after 1966 after meeting with other women across the country, Tillmon became more exposed to these ideas. The Welfare Rights Organization developed a large following of women from different ethnic and racial backgrounds and it dawned on Tillmon that there were no color lines in relation to women's issues. Tillmon has a difficult time understanding how men gained so much power over women, although it was not until she began hearing women talk about liberation that she realized the powerlessness of women in society. ANC Mothers Anonymous did not discuss these issues in the early years of its formation. Rather than a man versus woman mentality, ANC mothers experienced a woman versus woman dynamic because of the antagonistic relationship with the women social workers in the Welfare Department. (7:51-12:28)... Tillmon talks about the community activities in which ANC Mothers Anonymous participated. The group was a "self-supporting" organization that focused on other issues besides welfare rights, especially from 1963-1966. It was not until 1966 that other cities began to organize around welfare rights. At that time, a mass meeting was held with these other groups and countywide and statewide organizations were formed. (12:28-15:54)... Between 1963-65, ANC Mothers Anonymous was somewhat "undercover." A core group of approximately ten women met for regular meetings at each other's homes. However, the group was initially hesitant to expand itself because they were not completely sure of their goals. They informally consulted with welfare recipients but did not accompany women to the Welfare Department. In April 1966, Tillmon went to Washington, DC and met Etta Horn of the Welfare Recipients Alliance, which marked the first time Tillmon heard of groups similar to her own. ANC Mothers Anonymous did not openly express its intentions until Tillmon appeared on the Lomax Show in 1965 [and could no longer be anonymous]. (15:54-21:13)... Tillmon talks about her first appearance on the Lomax Show where she discussed ANC Mothers Anonymous. She believes that people were relieved to hear that the organization was available in the community. At the time, the group was still focused on a childcare center and retained this interest until the Martin Luther King Hospital was opened. She went to board meetings at the hospital and talked about her vision of a childcare center in the community. When Robert Greenberg, the head of pediatrics approached her regarding the development of a childcare center, she provided him with a "wants and needs" proposal for the childcare center. (21:13-27:21)... Tillmon attended night classes at Jordan High School until 1965. The day her class ended was when the Watts Riot erupted. She discusses the riots and how it affected the community. Initially, it was unclear why the riots occurred and the turmoil was a surprise to her. She went to Dr. Christopher Taylor's office on 103rd Street and watched the looters. End of tape.
- SUBJECT BIO - Johnnie Tillmon began her work as a leading activist for poor women in 1963, when she helped to found ANC Mothers Anonymous of Watts, the first grass roots welfare mothers organization in the country. She played key roles in the later formation of both the California Welfare Rights Organization (CRWO) and the National Welfare Rights Organization (NWRO), and eventually became executive director of NWRO. The eldest of three children, Tillmon was born in Scott, Arkansas. Her family were sharecroppers and she recalls picking cotton when she was only seven years old. She moved in with her aunt in Little Rock in order to attend high school, and during the war worked the night shift in a local munitions factory and attended school by day. At war's end, she quit high school and went to work in a laundry, where she engaged in her first organizing experience. Tillmon continued to work in that non-segregated laundry for fifteen years until moving to California, by which time she was the single parent of six children. Trying to deal with her daughter's truancy, she decided to remain at home to supervise her children and applied for public assistance. She mobilized other women in the Nickerson Gardens Housing Project and after an initial meeting, they organized the ANC Mothers Anonymous of Watts. Several years later, she was elected to the newly formed LA County Welfare Rights Organization and then to the presidency of the CWRO. In 1967, she was elected to the NWRO. In 1971, Tillmon moved to Washington, DC to become Associate Director of NWRO and following George Wiley's resignation in 1972 , she became Executive Director. This is also the year that she published her now famous article in Ms, "Welfare is a Woman's Issue." When NWRO closed its doors in 1974, Tillmon returned to Los Angeles, were she resumed her local community organizing. She remained active in the Watts community and continued to respond to phone queries from welfare recipients until 1991, when diabetes caused her health to fail. Although we had every intention of completing her oral history after the interviewer's return from Palestine in the summer of 1991, Tillmon's health problem resulted in continued postponements. Ultimately, it became clear that we would not be able to complete the oral history. As a result, the coverage of Tillmon's post-1972 life and activities is barely covered. [Note: the Tillmon entry in the Notable American Women v.5 includes a bibliography related to Tillmon and NWRO.] TOPICS - marriage and first husband (James Tillmon); single motherhood; reflections on life; traveling; children; church activities; PTA activities; household responsibilities; social activities; and family life;laundry work; working conditions in Arkansas; race relations; desegregation; move to Los Angeles; Nickerson Gardens Planning Organization; political activities; union activities; and work environment in Los Angeles laundries;political views; health problems; decision to accept welfare assistance; Gilbert Lindsay; organization and goals of ANC Mothers Anonymous; attitudes towards welfare recipients; welfare system; women's rights; Drew Medical Center and creation of Johnnie Tillmon Child Care Center;childcare; ANC Mothers Anonymous; attitude towards welfare recipients; contraception; independence from the welfare system;attitudes towards women's rights; women's liberation movement; ANC Mothers Anonymous; appearance on the Lomax Show; and the Watts "Riots;"
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