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Tillmon, Johnnie (audio interview #5 of 5)
INTERVIEW DESCRIPTION - This is the final interview with Johnnie Tillmon; the fourth in the 1991 oral history recorded with her in the living room of her small, compact home of the Watts/Willowbrook neighborhood of south Los Angeles. The warm relationship established with the narrator was strengthened by the political discussions that we held both before and after the recording session. Although we had every intention of resuming the oral history after the interviewer's return from Palestine in the summer of 1991, Tillmon's health problem resulted in continued postponements. Ultimately, it became clear that we would not be able to complete the oral history, which means that the coverage of Tillmon's post-1972 life and activities is barely covered. n.d.
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- 2022-10-03
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- SUBJECT BIO - Johnnie Tillmon began her work as a leading activist for poor women in 1963, when she helped to found ANC Mothers Anonymous of Watts, the first grass roots welfare mothers organization in the country. She played key roles in the later formation of both the California Welfare Rights Organization (CRWO) and the National Welfare Rights Organization (NWRO), and eventually became executive director of NWRO. The eldest of three children, Tillmon was born in Scott, Arkansas. Her family were sharecroppers and she recalls picking cotton when she was only seven years old. She moved in with her aunt in Little Rock in order to attend high school, and during the war worked the night shift in a local munitions factory and attended school by day. At war's end, she quit high school and went to work in a laundry, where she engaged in her first organizing experience. Tillmon continued to work in that non-segregated laundry for fifteen years until moving to California, by which time she was the single parent of six children. Trying to deal with her daughter's truancy, she decided to remain at home to supervise her children and applied for public assistance. She mobilized other women in the Nickerson Gardens Housing Project and after an initial meeting, they organized the ANC Mothers Anonymous of Watts. Several years later, she was elected to the newly formed LA County Welfare Rights Organization and then to the presidency of the CWRO. In 1967, she was elected to the NWRO. In 1971, Tillmon moved to Washington, DC to become Associate Director of NWRO and following George Wiley's resignation in 1972 , she became Executive Director. This is also the year that she published her now famous article in Ms, "Welfare is a Woman's Issue." When NWRO closed its doors in 1974, Tillmon returned to Los Angeles, were she resumed her local community organizing. She remained active in the Watts community and continued to respond to phone queries from welfare recipients until 1991, when diabetes caused her health to fail. Although we had every intention of completing her oral history after the interviewer's return from Palestine in the summer of 1991, Tillmon's health problem resulted in continued postponements. Ultimately, it became clear that we would not be able to complete the oral history. As a result, the coverage of Tillmon's post-1972 life and activities is barely covered. [Note: the Tillmon entry in the Notable American Women v.5 includes a bibliography related to Tillmon and NWRO.] INTERVIEW DESCRIPTION - This is the final interview with Johnnie Tillmon; the fourth in the 1991 oral history recorded with her in the living room of her small, compact home of the Watts/Willowbrook neighborhood of south Los Angeles. The warm relationship established with the narrator was strengthened by the political discussions that we held both before and after the recording session. Although we had every intention of resuming the oral history after the interviewer's return from Palestine in the summer of 1991, Tillmon's health problem resulted in continued postponements. Ultimately, it became clear that we would not be able to complete the oral history, which means that the coverage of Tillmon's post-1972 life and activities is barely covered. TOPICS - 1967 Trinity College meeting, NWRO; unofficial chair, NWRO organizational meeting; group conflicts; elected posts in NWRO; activities with ANC Mothers Anonymous; child care and children; relationship between welfare recipients and paid NWRO staff; Note: the audio quality of this tape is poor, with period interruptions due to technical problems;relationship between NWRO staff and welfare recipients; George Wiley; organizational conflicts; relationship with churches; and relationship with NAACP;relationship between NWRO staff and welfare recipients; gender relations; John Lewis; George Wiley; Tim Sampson; function and structure of the NWRO; responsibilities as chair; 1969 NWRO elections; Brooklyn Welfare Rights Organization; Beulah Sanders; Jeanette Washington; and Frankie Jetter; Note: the audio is interrupted in the beginning of the tape due to technical difficulties;internal conflict in Welfare Rights groups; conflict resolution and mediation role; relationship with Dr; Martin Luther King; planning for Poor People's Campaign;Martin Luther King; Resurrection City; women's liberation; attitudes re feminism; fundraising; lesbianism; IWY Houston conference and coalition building;contact with lesbians; coalition building; exposure and contact with women's liberation movement; Gloria Steinem; NOW; class and race consciousness;
- *** File: wmjtillmon18.mp3 Audio Segments and Topics: (0:00-8:53)... Note: the audio is interrupted periodically because of technical difficulties with the recording. Tillmon discusses the different welfare rights organizations formed in other states. A meeting was held at Trinity College in August 1967 to discuss the staffing and administration of the National Welfare Rights Organization. Tillmon was still acting as the temporary chairwoman of the group and her responsibilities involved setting up different committees in the group. There were some tensions between Tillmon and other members of the group when she selected the Nominating Committee. She appointed Hazel Leslie, the first woman to organize welfare rights in Philadelphia, as the chairwoman of the Nominating Committee. Tillmon discusses some of the difficulties she experienced after she chose the committee. (8:53-14:23)... Tillmon did not officially run as the chair of the National Welfare Rights Organization. The Nominating Committee nominated her as chairwoman and she was elected by the organization. She does not know if Jeanette Washington challenged her nomination as chair because she was not present when the nomination process took place. She was not interested in running for an elected office in the organization. (14:23-18:44)... Note: the audio is periodically interrupted during this segment because of technical difficulties with the recording. Between the February and August meetings of the National Welfare Rights Organization, Tillmon continued to work with ANC Mothers Anonymous and the Los Angeles County Welfare Rights Organization. While she was away from the home, her oldest children cared for their younger siblings. She did not have any problems with childcare and never had to rush home because of a family emergency. (18:44-21:59)... Note: the audio is periodically interrupted during this segment because of technical difficulties with the recording. Tillmon did not fight for the same goals on a national level that were central to ANC Mothers Anonymous. Many of the women involved in the national organization were organizers who had training and were previously involved in poverty programs. Therefore, childcare, education, and job training were not priorities for the national organization. These issues became an important goal for the National Welfare Rights Organization when the government began talking about putting welfare recipients to work. However, childcare legislation remained weak. (21:59-24:00)... Tillmon discusses the differences between the welfare recipients involved in the National Welfare Rights Organization and the paid staff. She did not have any problems with George Wiley and he was a good fundraiser for the organization. Some people believed that welfare recipients should run the organization, while others felt that it was the responsibility of paid staff members to do so. End of tape. *** File: wmjtillmon19.mp3 (0:00-3:46)... Note: the audio is periodically interrupted during this segment because of technical difficulties with the recording. Tillmon describes the agendas put together by staff and notes that there were no real conflicts between staff and recipients regarding the agendas. The first treasurer (Debbie Coleman?) was out of Chicago; but she went off the board and went on paid staff. There were some people who had problems with the staff running the organization rather than the recipients, but for the most part Tillmon comments that there was little conflict. (3:43-11:04)... Tillmon believe that those criticized the staff of the National Welfare Rights Organization were mainly recipients who were not members of the board. Whenever someone came to her with a criticism of George Wiley, she would tell them to leave him alone because he was very talented in his fundraising and organizational efforts. She never desired to be in his position. Had she been in his position, she probably would not have been as successful in her fundraising efforts as Wiley. Describing Wiley's fundraising abilities and his numerous contacts, Tillmon recounts an incident when she went to New York with him. He said he had a meeting and ran off without her. She thought he was going to a building to meet with fundraisers, but when she crossed the street, she saw that he was meeting on the street corner with three Jewish men. He had those kind of contacts and she says it did not matter to her how he got the money. She would never have been able to cultivate these types of contacts. She shared her feelings with other women on the board, which is why they respected Wiley and did not criticize his position in the organization. After the 1971 election, many welfare recipients were elected to staff positions. (11:04-15:32)... Chrysler had leased the NWRO for a conference and when Tillmon and George came out of the conference they were told to go last. She did not realize things were serious and she wanted to talk to the people. She had to get in and was taken to the hotel. She did not know there were guns in the car and she had no idea what was going on. There was a very large woman from Wisconsin, who Tillmon thinks was a recipient, who had accosted John Lewis while he was passing out literature. Tillmon remembers people telling John not to pass that literature out but she cannot recall the exact information in the literature. (15:32-19:49)... Tillmon explains that most of the money NWRO received came from White churches. They never got money from the NAACP or from the black churches. She doesn't know why, but he Black churches have never been supportive of welfare recipients. All of the White churches, except the Baptists, have given money. She recalls going to an apartment on Fifth Avenue in New York and being the only black person there and the white women gave money. (19:49-22:40)... The conflict between John Lewis and the rest of the organization revolved around Tillmon's belief that all poor people should be involved in one welfare organization. Lewis thought that Blacks should be in a separate organization. She notes that there were some things on which she and George Wiley did not agree, but they had to compromise. (22:40-27:40)... Tillmon and Wiley would work out the plans for the organization and then bring them to the board. They also had to take the plans to the NCC (National Coordinating Council), which continued to function until there was no organization left. They had meetings with the NCC along with the Executive Board, which Tillmon headed. Almost all of the states had representatives and they would come to the meetings to raise money. They met four times a year. Between times, Tillmon was in Washington and Wiley's responsibility was to run the office. End of tape *** File: wmjtillmon20.mp3 (0:00-5:21)... Note: the audio quality in this segment is periodically interrupted because of technical problems with the recording. Tillmon discusses her responsibilities as chairwoman of the National Welfare Rights Organization. The board developed programs and the staff implemented them. She talks about various organizers and the staff relationships with John Lewis, Tim Sampson and [first name not known] Hobart, who many people felt was a disciple of George Wiley. However, Hobart did not like the publicity bestowed on Wiley. In many ways, Tillmon feels that she was a peacekeeper for the different personalities in the National Welfare Rights Organization. (5:21-7:14)... Tillmon does not recall any criticisms or challenges of the leadership of the National Welfare Rights Organization along gender lines. Most of the clerical staff employed at the organization were women and there were women working for the group in other capacities. (7:14-22:07)... Elected chairs were allowed to serve two terms of two years each. Tillmon was elected as chairwoman of National Welfare Rights Organization in 1967 and reelected in 1969. Her details of the 1969 election campaign sheds light on the function and structure of the organization. In 1971, she retired from the National Welfare Rights Organization board and became Executive Director. The opposition to her reelection came mainly from the Brooklyn Welfare Rights Organization headed by Beulah Sanders, who was one of Tillmon's running mates during the 1969 election campaign. (22:07-29:56)... Tillmon continues to discuss the issues during the 1969 NWRO election campaign. She believes that people nominated Beulah Sanders because they felt she was more easy to control than Tillmon. When the election was completed and Tillmon won, she was criticized by the Brooklyn Welfare Rights Organization for neglecting them. The group also blamed her for not seating Jeanette Washington as a regional representative on the board and making promises to Frankie Jetter. Tillmon visited the group at their office and addressed their concerns with her leadership in the organization. End of tape. *** File: wmjtillmon21.mp3 (0:00-3:45)... The criticisms that were made in the group were never over the political issues. Tillmon spent a lot of time with the legislatures and the bills that were going to Capitol Hill. The bills had to be interpreted into layman's terms. There were political issues that involved hunger and health programs (3:45-8:34)... Tillmon spent one week a month at home during the three or four years that she was in Washington. Groups would call her in and she would travel to their locations. She went to Virginia once to deal with a conflict between the women in the group and a man. She feared that if she didn't straighten it out the group was going to be destroyed. She helped to settle the dispute. She has been in all of the states except a few and when she was called upon she went. (8:34-14:22)... According to Tillmon, the splits that occurred within the groups were over power plays, noting that poor people liked power like anyone else. They fought over positions like any other groups; it was the same in recipient groups as in high powered group. She was often was the mediator and tried make peace between groups that would, literally, be divided by guns, sitting would sit between them. Tillmon never had formal training in conflict resolution, but dealt with it as it came to her naturally. (14:22-19:20)... Tillmon started going to Washington DC three or four days a week in 1967. If she was not at a meeting, she was at her house. One of her neighbors saw her on television and called the Welfare Department, telling them that Tillmon had left her children alone at home. She was visited by the head of the Welfare Department one day soon after. They knew that she was not leaving the children alone but had to respond to the allegation. (19:20-22:56)... President Nixon had a big conference on hunger in Washington DC and there were a lot of people there. Tillmon went and everywhere she went the head of the Welfare department in Los Angeles was right there with her the whole trip. Tillmon recalls that the conference went very well, and remembers that a Nixon appointee called a news conference. (22:56-24:02)... Some of the recipients who became more visible and active did run into problems and were bought off or threatened. They would be given jobs that did not pay more than their welfare checks just to keep their mouths shut. Some of the recipients were not affected or did not pay any attention to it and Tillmon did not experience any problems. (24:02-28:13)... The Poor People's Campaign in 1968 started to be organized before Martin Luther King was shot. The King people came to Tillmon for support when they were having their conference in Chicago. When Tillmon was told that Dr. King was busy and couldn't attend, she told them "no," unless Dr. King was not there. That evening he showed up at the meeting and notes that the people at the table asked where he was during all of the meetings; according to her, they "kicked his butt." Tillmon asked King where he was when one of the Welfare Fights bills was being heard. He said that he did not know. That was when the marriage between King and his people and the welfare rights folks came about. *** File: wmjtillmon22.mp3 (0:00-4:11)... At the time of his assassination, Dr. Martin Luther King was involved with the janitors' issues and the sanitation strike. Tillmon had insisted he come to the Poor People's Campaign in order for her to support his cause. Tillmon went to Resurrection City and although she thought that it was a good idea, she believed that the poor weather reduced its potential impact. Although it rained practically every day they were there, people did stay out in the rain in their tents. She notes that there were as many Whites there as Blacks people. (4:11-14:05)... There big 1968 march in Washington DC was before Tillmon went overseas for a tour in Scandinavia. [Note: Several minutes are spent trying to sort out which of several articles on women and welfare were actually written by Tillmon. Although she does recall writing something about welfare mothers, she did not did not recall writing a second article about the rhetoric of white women and women's liberation. The discussion then focuses on the article about the welfare mothers groups.] Tillmon was involved with women's church groups and remembers staying with these women in hotel. She shared a room with the head of the certain church auxiliary. This was set up so the women could learn something about each others' group and for Tillmon to raise money from the church women. Coming out of that meeting, Tillmon raised $75,000; she had originally asked for $100,000. (14:05-15:13)... Tillmon's issues were not focused on men versus women. However, she notes that all of the decisions in the legislatures are made by men. But when a woman was in the group of men who were making the decisions, she was just as hard as the men. For instance, women in the social services are more difficult to deal with than men and have more negative attitudes than men. (15:13-21:11)... Tillmon believes that most women in women's liberation groups are White and that most welfare recipients who are women are also White, although this is not generally known. She notes that until 1963 families did not qualify for welfare and that women were the ones who had to go down to apply and fill out the application for aid. For this reason, she believes that welfare is a woman's issue. [Note: this is the title of her 1972 Ms. article.] Tillmon comments that while the women's liberation women resisted wearing bras or [having] doors opened, her concern was if women have a door to open or money to buy a bra. The issue was not necessarily men against women but the freedom of women to not be dominated by men. (21:11-30:19)... Tillmon talks about the [1979 Houston IWY] conference where she was supporting the lesbian caucus and they were supporting her. They worked together to get done what had to be done and it did not matter that they were lesbians. The lesbian issue had not come up in the welfare rights organization and it was not even talked about. Tillmon recalls another time, hearing a beautiful speech by a woman at an all women's conference in San Francisco. She went looking for her to ask her a question about how she could be a grandmother. The woman was a lesbian and Tillmon did not understand how she could be a grandmother; the woman had been married and had a child and later became a lesbian. Before this, Tillmon had not been exposed to gay people nor had discussions about lesbians. End of tape *** File: wmjtillmon23.mp3 (0:00-8:16)... There were no issues between the lesbians and the welfare rights organization. Tillmon believes that what people do in their home is not the issue and does not affect what they do for a living. She was not concerned with the issues of women's liberation such as bra burning and opening car doors; she was more concerned about the issues of welfare. Later, when she was more involved with women groups and when she knew Gloria Steinem, her views changed. She had no idea that White women were beat up just like the women in the ghetto; and that you did not have to be Black to be beaten. When she began to hear that White women had the same problems as Black women, she changed her views. She began to realize that it was happening to all classes of women; it was just heard about more in relation to poor Black communities. (8:16-13:38)... In about 1969, Tillmon was in a meeting talking about her organization with White women who lived in Burbank. She wondered if there were welfare recipients in Burbank because there were no Black people there. That was when she realized that White women faced welfare issues. About this time, she was beginning to have interactions with all sorts of women's groups and was meeting women that were involved with NOW. She learned a lot from them and they learned from Tillmon about the welfare system. Tillmon believes the attitudes toward poor women have to be changed; although they have not yet been changed, she believes that some day they could be. End of tape
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