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Ward, Herbert (audio interview #1 of 2)
INTERVIEW DESCRIPTION - This second interview with Herbert Ward was conducted as part of a student project on desegregating unions during WWII and covers some of the same material as the earlier one. TOPICS - family background; UAW; IAM; racial discrimination; racism; Yea Vote Committee; and McCarthyism and red baiting; Some of the material covered here is similar to what is in Gluck's interview on Tracks A1a and A1b;experiences at IAM labor conventions; racial discrimination; racism; A; Philip Randolph; March on Washington Movement; Executive Order 8802; Yea Vote Committee; Walter Williams; Urban League; NAACP; and WWII; Some of the material covered here is similar to Tracks A1a and A1b of Gluck interview;UAW/CIO vs IAM/AFL; career with the IAM; racial discrimination; Yea Vote Committee; women; WWII; and assessment of the progress of the labor movement; Some of the material covered here is similar to Tracks A1a and A1b of Gluck interview; 1979-04-29
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- 2019-09-24
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- SUBJECT BIO - Herbert Ward came from a union background, with family members who were in the Jim Crow longshore union in the Gulf Coast of Texas in the 1920s and 1930s. He came to Los Angeles as a young man, seeking better educational opportunities, but after a brief period at UCLA ended up working on the railroad as a porter and cooks helper until he became involved with the Urban League training program at Lockheed-Vega in Burbank. He joined the IAM, District Lodge 727, and founded the "Yea Vote Committee," which fought to overturn the exclusionary clause in the IAM's constitution. Ward was later elected to office in his predominantly White local and eventually became the first Black Special Representative on the staff of the IAM in the west. He was also a leading member of the NAACP in Los Angeles beginning in the 1940s. He was interviewed initially by Sherna Berger Gluck as part of the Rosie the Riveter Revisited project, and was re-interviewed six months later by Greg Perkins as part of his project on the desegregation of unions in wartime Los Angeles.
- File: lhduhward3.mp3 Audio Segments and Topics: (0:00-3:42)... Brief introduction Ward was born into a family with a longshore and trade union background and they participated in many strikes in Houston. His father, however, was not a longshoreman. Ward left Texas in his last year of high school and took a freight train to California in pursuit of a higher education. (3:42-7:13)... The locals in Houston were Jim Crow locals and Blacks and Whites worked at opposite ends of the ship, with a separate foreman and segregated facilities. During strikes, however, the Black and White locals signed mutual agreements, at which time Whites learned they had a great deal in common with the Black longshoremen. Ward describes the labor movement in Los Angeles, indicating that WWII expanded the industries in the area. The CIO was often at odds with the AFL because of opposing union policies. The AFL quickly realized that their exclusionary policies defeated the purpose of trade unionism. As a result, the IAM was created to compete with the CIO as an industrial union. (7:13-10:56)... Although there were very few proponents of incorporating Blacks into the IAM, the union leadership soon recognized that unless they opened their doors to minorities and Blacks they were defeating the purpose of trade unionism. Ward and the other Blacks brought into the IAM were not accepted on an equal basis with the White membership. However, he did not learn of the exclusionary clause in the IAM until he decided to become a member. He describes his early experiences at Lockheed and his introduction to the IAM. Clarence Gibson was a strong opponent of exclusion and many Blacks worked together to change the clause from within the IAM. Ward explains that it was difficult for him to resolve the dichotomy of exclusion and democracy, particularly because so many Blacks were helping with the war effort during the 1940s. This gave him the impetus to fight the exclusionary clause in the IAM. (10:56-16:21)... Initially, he was unfamiliar with the structure and organization of the IAM. Most of his activity occurred in Lodge 727 of the IAM, which did not develop a Jim Crow local, even when opposition to the exclusionary clause erupted. The president of the IAM, Harvey Brown, rationalized the existence of the clause by arguing that skin color was not an issue. Ward believes that these statements were made in an attempt to minimize the race issues and eliminate any confrontations. In Oregon and Washington state, Jim Crow locals existed and were supported by many of the members. Ward recalls his conversations with Roy Brown, the vice president of Lodge 727 IAM, who was a strong advocate of Jim Crow locals. (16:21-19:42)... He describes the labor force in California, indicating that as industry grew more people migrated to the area. Initially, race issues were not a priority because of the need to fill positions. With the influx of minorities to the area, Lockheed publicized its intention to hire Blacks. However, Blacks continued to occupy the menial positions within the company. Ward was in the second wave of Blacks to enter Lockheed, and he recalls that racism was omnipresent in the plant, the purpose of which was to discourage Blacks from working there. The management of Lockheed did not condone this behavior and over time developed measures to deal with racism. (19:42-23:40)... His approach to combating racial discrimination was to work within the IAM to enact change. In order to protect himself from red baiting, he organized the "Yea Vote Committee" with local community leaders. Prominent citizens and community activists, such as Lauren Miller, Leon Washington, and Gus Hawkins, acted as the advisory council for the committee. These people advised him that it was necessary to change things from within in order to enact change in society. He recalls that on many occasions, the IAM returned union dues to Blacks when they attempted to address racial issues within the union. Although many accepted their dues, Ward discouraged people from doing so. (23:40-27:26)... In general, Blacks were more likely to be anti-IAM, not antiunion. Many were conscious of the tolerance within the CIO, which was organizing the aircraft industries in the Los Angeles area. He recalls that there were conflicts between the IAM and the CIO/UAW during this period. He saw the CIO/UAW as an adversary because they could not support his efforts at combating racism within the IAM while they were trying to persuade machinists to join the CIO/UAW. He discusses his association with and the activities of Reverend Clayton Russell within the Black community. (27:26-31:00)... As a leader of the Yea Vote Committee and social activist, he believes the IAM encouraged the FBI to investigate him for communist activity. In addition to interviewing his neighbors, the FBI also met with him to discuss his activities. He describes these meetings and his feelings towards the FBI agents. end of tape File: lhduhward4.mp3 (0:00-1:52)... Tape begins abruptly with a discussion of his activity during an IAM convention in New York. After being elected as a delegate to an IAM convention in New York, he was denied entrance. Although he attempted to sit in the balcony area, he was thrown out on two occasions. He discusses his experiences there and his attempts to lobby for the removal of the exclusionary clause from the IAM constitution. While in New York, he met with A. Philip Randolph and Clarence Johnson, two prominent Black leaders in the labor movement. (1:52-4:51)... Ward discusses his association with Randolph and the March on Washington Movement. Ward believes that Randolph was a member of Franklin D. Roosevelt's Black Cabinet and influenced Roosevelt to pass Executive Order 8802. Soon after the March on Washington Movement and Executive Order 8802, Black women were hired into war industry positions. Randolph traveled throughout the country and monitored the progress of the executive order. Ward recalls that his relationship with Randolph was reciprocal in terms of sharing information on the labor movement in Los Angeles and how to fight racial discrimination in the IAM. (4:51-11:18)... During the 1940s, Randolph stood out as a national leader in the labor movement. Action in the Los Angeles area, however, was organized by community groups that coordinated their efforts with the Urban League or the NAACP. The Urban League was committed to hiring Blacks, particularly in industries where they were absent or under-represented. These efforts were headed by Floyd Covington, who was well known within the community for finding jobs for Blacks. However, Ward notes that one of the sources of support for the Urban League were the very same big businesses that engaged in the discriminatory practices that disadvantaged Blacks. He explains that the influx of war industries coincided with equal opportunity legislation, resulting in businesses seeking Black workers from organizations such as the Urban League. The purpose of the Yea Vote Committee was to eliminate the exclusionary clause in the IAM and provide Blacks with equal opportunity within the union. Although the Yea Vote Committee concentrated its efforts in the Los Angeles area, it gained national attention through conferences and conventions. This provided the committee with opportunities to increase its base of support. (11:18-17:22)... He discusses his experiences at two IAM conferences, with specific detail on the Western States Conference in Portland, Oregon. At this conference the delegates debated his presence with racist arguments and refused to seat him. Several of the sympathetic delegates persuaded him not to attend the convention and he ultimately decided to leave. He notes that the Taft-Hartley Act (1947) provided a legal justification for his recognition, but he did not want to pursue litigation or create further opposition for fear his presence would compromise any gains made during the fight against exclusionary policies. (17:22-21:35)... While working at Lockheed, he was approached by liberal Whites sympathetic to his views on the discriminatory nature of the IAM constitution. A community meeting on the issue was held with both Black and White workers from Lockheed and the Yea Vote Committee was formed. As the committee grew, the FBI began investigating the group for communist activity. Several of the White members of the committee were labeled as communists by the FBI and Ward recalls the investigations that ensued. Those alleged to be communists tried to influence the group to pursue other areas of interest. However, the committee did not stray from its original premise of combating exclusionary policies. Subsequently, the communists were expelled from the group. (21:35-25:04)... As a member of the NAACP and the Urban League, he was involved in activities that fought against racial discrimination within the Black community. These activities were separate from his action in the Yea Vote Committee. He discusses his relationship with Walter Williams and Williams' opposition to the Jim Crow local in the Boilermakers Union. Ward explains that the struggle with the IAM was not a unique component of the civil rights movement, but an attempt to dismantle the barriers that restricted Blacks from equal opportunity in employment and union representation. He believes it was necessary to prepare the labor market for Blacks returning from WWII. It was these efforts that changed the work environment and made it possible for many Blacks to maintain their industry jobs after the war ended. (25:04-27:36)... He generally kept his action with the Yea Vote Committee separate from his involvement in community action and the NAACP. Among his many activities with the NAACP, he dealt with issues such as segregation within restaurants and racial discrimination in employment at small community stores. Although his activities with the NAACP were separate from his involvement with the Yea Vote Committee, these activities were complementary, focusing on Black employment. (27:36-31:00)... Although he does not recall specific instances of anti-war sentiment within the Black community, there was disappointment with the fact that prisoners of war were often treated better than Blacks in the United States. There was also a feeling among Blacks that they should be benefactors of the very democracy they were fighting to preserve. He recalls that Reverend Clayton Russell's Negro Victory Committee was active in the community and participated in the war effort. end of tape - sound stops at 30:45 File: lhduhward5.mp3 (0:00-1:20)... Tape begins abruptly with a continued discussion on the legal suits within the labor movement. Ward argues that the Yea Vote Committee did not pursue any legal avenues during their fight because he felt that it would alienate other members of the IAM. The emphasis was gaining support and not forcing anything on the other members of the union. He believes that the movement was better served by enacting change from within, which also fostered a more cooperative atmosphere. (1:20-11:28)... He discusses the differences between the IAM/AFL and the UAW/CIO, indicating that the IAM was created when the AFL realized they had to expand their membership base in order to compete with the CIO. The AFL was not ready for Blacks, but they were ready for an industrial union. The programs in the UAW/CIO, such as a civil rights department and coordination with the NAACP, were very visible and attractive to the Black community. However, he believes that "selling" trade unionism to Blacks is not necessary because they inherently understand that mass organization produces results. The CIO welcomed this mentality and opened its doors to minorities. In contrast, the IAM as a craft union created an atmosphere in which jobs are coveted because of training, seniority, and job inheritance. His role in the labor movement is to highlight the areas in which the IAM can improve; however, there are still very few Blacks in policy-making positions within the IAM. This makes his position more difficult because it is contradictory to convince plant managers to place Blacks in better positions and provide them with training when the union does not afford Blacks the same types of opportunities. Although he enjoys working for the IAM, discriminatory practices are still very noticeable. (11:28-15:26)... As he rose in the ranks of the IAM, he expanded his knowledge about the labor movement and unionism. He also returned to UCLA and received a certificate in industrial relations. When he was finally hired as a full-time staff member of the IAM, it was a milestone for the union because there were so few Blacks employed in union positions. He discusses the other job offers he received and how this influenced the IAM's decision to hire him. (15:26-19:50)... He believes that after gaining the respect of his fellow workers, he was elected as a business representative and recognized by the IAM as a valuable asset to the organization. He does not believe that the IAM made a special effort to hire him because of his race. Approximately four years after he started working for the IAM, he met with Ed Webb, the only other Black working in the district office, and they discussed the lack of Blacks in the IAM with the district president. Gradually, more Blacks were hired, but the numbers are very small, and there are even fewer ethnic minorities working for the union. (19:50-23:42)... Initially, there were no women involved with the Yea Vote Committee, although they gradually joined and their numbers increased. Although women did a lot of work for the movement, their activities were often restricted because of child care and family responsibilities. In regards to job retention following WWII, he recalls that a large number of Blacks retained their jobs. He believes that, within the Los Angeles area, many of the gains made by Blacks during the war remained after the war. However, he does not know whether this was the case on a national level. <b>End of tape - recording ends at 23:38, but tape continues
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